Oil system modification

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Oil system modification

Postby jack93racing » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:05 pm

I keep seeing Oil System modification listed on some motor builders web sites. Does anyone know what is being done? I know u can put a restrictor in the heads oil feed line to keep oil from over feeding the cams and head section at high RPM, you can also put a shim in the oil bypass spring to raise the oil pressue. Anyone know of other things being done?
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby SBR10 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:13 pm

One thing I know of, Dale Ridgway is building a high volume
oil pump for the R6.
Some mods to internal oil ports are also done by engine builders.
Thanks to Ridgway Race Cars, OMO Wings, AFCO Racing Shocks, Valken Racing Wheels, Snedegar Construction, AMSOIL, Scobee Brothers Racing.

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Re: Oil system modification

Postby grape » Sun Mar 11, 2012 2:31 pm

i build hi vo pumps for suzukis, have been doing so with the onset of the modern-ish 1000's back in the early 00's. the 06 up takes a set of gears and a new front cover that we machine.
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby Goforit14 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:49 pm

Anybody experienced low oil pressure at idle for Yamaha R6? At 1700 RPM and 200 degrees, my Yamaha has about 2 lbs pressure. It jumps to 50+ when I run up RPM, but that low idle is scary.. I have heard that is just the way Yamahas are but wondered if others seen that low? BTW, this motor was just rebuilt, but have seen this before the rebuild..
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby Bill » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:16 pm

Yamaha R6's all have low oil pressure at low RPM's. The best cure for this is to NOT run an oil pressure gauge...

I'm not an engine guru, but I've had many people voice to me their fears of this phenomenon. Here are my thoughts on the subject: Low oil pressure does not mean there is no oil getting to the bearings. There is a volume of oil present, and the bearings are well protected. But at that low of RPM, the pump is not experiencing enough resistance, I suspect due to bearing clearances, to create oil "pressure". You can "cure" this problem one of several ways. You can tighten the bearing clearances, increase oil pump volume or even limit the oil going to the valve train. The way I see it, doing either of the first two will limit the RPM potential of the motor, and rob horsepower. Limiting the oil to the valve train at high RPM also seems to be a road to disaster. So why create issues in the motor at high RPM's, in an attempt to try and fix a problem at low RPM that the gurus at Yamaha don't see as a problem???

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Re: Oil system modification

Postby Tony Main » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:08 am

Bill is pretty much right, could also run a slightly heavier weight oil.
In comparison I’ve been in sprint cars that only carry 15-18 lbs. at idle warm, as long as it jumps up when you pick the throttle your good!
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby jack93racing » Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:48 pm

Why is limiting oil to the vavle train a road to disaster? Is to small of restictor being used. Is this not a common practice any more?
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby FTZ Performance » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:32 am

Hi Jack93 & others.
Man, I tell ya with dealing with building 600 motors for 17 years now, this same subject has kept me awake many a night! but I think I can help.
First off Jack93, yes that pressure sounds pretty low, and you may well have internal problem, but also keep in mind many gauges don't read accurately below 10-15 lbs.
Secondly, turn that idle up....the cam chain doesn't like whipping around at low rpms either.
Thirdly, as far as internally changing the oil system all around? One thing I have learned in my 40 years of tweaking with motorcycle engines is that in most cases you can trust the Japanese engineers to know what they are doing. They know their stuff and usually have done their homework. Not saying that some things can't be improved for power or for specific use in a racecar, but on the whole you can trust their work. That goes for sizing the oil pump as well. All a bigger, badder oil pump will do is just loop and dump more oil out the oil bypass, just churning and heating it up worse. How do I know that? Just look at a data acquisition file such as a Mychron file that is setup for oil pressure. The oil quickly rises to max pressure then flat lines- well before 10000 rpms (at least on our motors)so that is taking all that excess hot oil and putting it right back in the pan to get even hotter. I can tell you first that the stock oil pump with a modified bypass can put out over 110lbs of oil pressure. We actually have to fight this, trying to get the pressure down when using our good oil. (too high pressure can actually force the rods "off center"- not good.)
We do put restrictors inside our motors, primarily diverting oil away from the transmission which is also carefully modified to keep from spraying oil all around. And we are really fussy about the oil pickups, pans and other parts of the system we modify. But I would NEVER even think of restricting the oil to the top-end, that oil provides the cooling to the hard working valve springs and cam lobes. plus it is already restricted usually by a tiny hole in the head gasket.
Lastly- if you put some really good oil in there it can make a big pressure difference. I don't believe these thin motorcycle and automotive oils pushed on people today have any business in something that is punished as hard as these microsprint motors. With trying to get 150hp out of a 100hp motor- plus adding on the load of dragging a racecar, the bearings loads go "off the chart"- well beyond what some hot street bike would normally see.
Having said all that, the real worry is not actually the oil pressure at all: basically enough pressure is plenty, more is not better. The big issue is actually the lubrication properties of the oil film between that bearing and the crank journal. The molecular rolling and shearing of that little thin layer of oil (called the hydrodynamic wedge) is really what keeps metal off metal- and disaster at bay. (It's pretty amazing really). Some specialty oils can support much higher loads than most other oils, and any oil will handle less as it's temperature rises. Much less, and your oil gets a lot hotter than you think.
All the oil pressure does is bring the oil "to the party", and carry away the localized heat. Once I had a clear understanding of this I fiercely sought out oils with the best high temperature properties, and also promptly developed the FTZ 600 Oil Cooler system, as the even best oil at 50 degrees hotter than some other oil, is no longer "the best".
One other factor involved is how the rod bearings are sized and fitted during assembly- which again effects that "wedge". We take this way past simply matching up factory "color codes", which can leave you all over the place on clearance. We have got to where we go thru sometimes dozen of bearings of the same color code, before finding and sizing up the very best one. (I guess that's the reason we had $5800 worth of just R6 bearings on our recent parts inventory! ouch...)
Hope this clears some of the fog, see the links below for more reading....
Jon@FTZ Performance, Inc.
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby shawntiggity » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:28 am

Jon, what is your opinon on the best oil for these engines
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby weirracing » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:41 am

very well said Jon this should clear this up for a lot of us out there . i have always worried about low oil pressure at idle . when we switched our oil to the tj racing oil that was made for engines running methanol our oil pressure came up a little at idle when it was hot . but one thing i have done is not idle it way down that seams to help too we keep it around 1500 to 1700
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby Goforit14 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:46 pm

Thanks to all for contributing to this discussion. I keep hearing use the best oil. I know everyone probably has their own favorites, but being new to micros would be interested in hearing opinions on what is the best..

Thanks
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby FTZ Performance » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:14 am

Sure guys, I can't get into all the details here, but the short story is the oil we chose to recommend is a grade V synthetic ester made by Motul in a 20w-60 weight. This does not mean it is a 60w oil- it means it is a 20w oil that has the viscosity and other properties of a 60w oil at 100c or 212 degrees Fahrenheit. The grade V esters are known for their exceptional high temp shear stability and film strength. They are not made from petroleum, and not found at your local Wally world or discount auto parts chain, and they are also more expensive. (but much, much cheaper than engine parts!) The big name oil company's won't mess with this type oil or market so it left is up to specialty performance oil companies to market. Motul was a early pioneer of this technology and a very trusted brand with the Euro/Perf/tech/roadracing crowd. (Ducati, BMW,etc). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motul_(company) ....an interesting history. (I had to copy and paste the link)
This oil is costly and hard to find, but we buy it in large bulk lots and sell it at a low markup- (we are in the motor selling business not the oil selling business). With our supplier's their latest price increase we now ask $35 a 2-liter can, or $320 a case of 24 liters.
The funny thing is most our motor customers are now spending less on oil than they did with our previously recommended oils, because it is fine to leave it in for several more races. Travis regularly sends his oil in to test after 4-5 races and the results are impressive- as it still specs out way better than the others oils new.
But as I said in the first post, the best oil won't help you if it gets too hot- it just thins out too much. And I would definitely rank the oil cooler as more important, as proper oil temperature is really key. (that also means not too cool, as well as too hot). We actually lost a couple of extremely "over-built" experimental motors last year when "things happened" and the oil still approached 300 degrees during a race, and the rod bearings promptly failed- of course ventilating the block. Yeah, it makes for a bad ride home, but I look at it as just proof more work needs done.....we will be trying out some further ideas of mine when we receive delivery of our new chassis/hub dyno later this spring. So stay in touch.
Good luck to all
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby theBUS71h » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:36 pm

Weight of oil literally means nothing in the scheme of lubricating your engine. The only thing the weight really does for sure, is guarantees if it can flow through the passages in your engine.

most of your "Racing Oils", aren't actually a 30 weight, 40 weight, or 50 weight anyway. Our oil (TJ Racing Oil) is built around those viscosity ranges. We have guys in the micros using the 30-50, it all just depends on preference. But we also have some running the USAC National Midget tour that have been using 0 weight oil.

If water left a film in your engine which is what is protecting your parts from metal on metal wear, you could run it. The viscosity index is what is important, along with the additive package that they have in the oil. Take Brad Penn for example, we have run many labs on it, along with others, but this is the one that is most informative. Brad Penn has more zinc in it than most other oils, which some feel is better. The problem is the size of the particles is so large, that the oil filter literally foils out "the good stuff", which leaves you an oil that isn't protecting your engine. And before someone says all of our parts are green afterwards, well, they should be. It has green dye in it.

TJ Racing Oil was built on the premise of being honest to the consumer. We have built power on the dyno, we have built torque on the dyno, we have won races on the track, and we have beat every oil in the game that we have tested against, including many of the synthetics, along wtih beating them out in price. In our last dyno test in the midget, our 30 weight, beat out Gibbs 20 weight, and has better protection properties.

MEP in Muncie Indiana has done all of our dyno testing, and he is also one of our major dealers. There were three engines that he tore down this year and kept track of for us. One used Gibbs, one used Sempeko, and one used TJ Racing Oil. TJ Racing Oil saved this customer $4,000 on parts. Everyone we've spoken with in the engine industry for micros, midgets, sprint cars, or late models all said the same thing, your oil saved customers on parts. At $11 a quart, you cannot beat the performance, and price. Call me anytime or shoot me an email if there are any more questions I can answer.

I started on this journey not knowing much about oil, but anymore, it's become my life, and our future in the sport. We've done our homework, and have hired one of the top military chemists in the world as our lead chemist. His forumlations are in Army Hummers, Navy Nuclear Submarines, Coast Guard Helicopters and more.
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby theBUS71h » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:33 pm

Also a couple other things to look at when getting oil. The first number is nothing more than a cold pour point. Unless you are racing in Alaska it means absolutely nothing. The second number is the actual weight of the oil. I use the word weight very loose as you could essentially have two different weights with the same properties. Our oils for example if it says its a 10w40 (which is what we reccomend on the 600s), the viscosity is typical of a 40 weight oil. When you look at certain oils some are thicker or thinner than others, but it honestly doesn't matter as i stated before because it all depends on the viscosity index.

The other thought i would like to share is synthetic oils aren't all the same. I won't go into specifics but we have found that there is only two Pao synthetic on the market. We were stunned when we found out what some companies are charging for an oil that is the same as a conventional oil.
Billy Rowlee
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Re: Oil system modification

Postby SBR10 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:41 pm

Another thing guys, these are wet clutch engines and the engine oil you choose to run needs to play nice with your clutch disks as well as protect your rotating investment in HP. You have a engine pumping out 120+ HP does you nothing if it doesn't make the wheels go round & round. :)
Thanks to Ridgway Race Cars, OMO Wings, AFCO Racing Shocks, Valken Racing Wheels, Snedegar Construction, AMSOIL, Scobee Brothers Racing.

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